Jedi is Mother, Jedi is Father

[4thofeleven]

There's a bit in one of the Bantam Star Wars novels - I want to say it was in the original Thrawn trilogy, but it's been a while since I read them - where it's mentioned that Mara Jade was taken from her family as a child for training, against their wishes. And at the time, it was intended as a bit of detail emphasising how evil the Emperor was.

Of course, now the prequels have come out and it turns out that wasn't a sign of the Emperor's ruthlessness after all - no, abducting children from their parents is, in fact, standard procedure for training force-sensitives! Hell, I'm not sure if the dates quite line up, but Jade could just as easily have been one of the last children to be 'recruited' by the Jedi before the purges, and only fell into the Emperor's hands after the Jedi were exterminated.

Now, to be fair, there's nothing indicating the Jedi took children against their parent's wishes. Still, taking children from their parents and training them to fight as part of a warrior order isn't something I'd consider acceptable, even if you do have parental consent. Imagine the uproar if some country started doing that today!

Now, I understand that the prequels were quite often intentionally taking some of the shine off the Jedi; portraying them as an order that had become complacent, lost sight of its higher ideals and become bogged down in procedure and tradition. But I think they often went a little too far, and the Jedi end up being less 'in urgent need of reform' and more 'burn the whole rotten edifice to the ground and sow the earth with salt'.

And then I start looking at the Jedi in general, and you notice that while Yoda insists that a Jedi uses the force for 'knowledge and defense', we never actually see that. The EU has the force being used for healing, but the films themselves never show Jedi using the force for anything but combat. It's Vader, not a Jedi, who we see just stand there and absorb a blaster bolt, while Jedi apparently think it's acceptable to wave deadly weapons around in bar-room brawls. And a light-sabre isn't exactly a 'more civilized weapon', unless you think a weapon with no stun-setting is more civilized, a weapon that has less non-lethal applications than a regular sword, which at least has a flat as well as an edge.

I think that's one of the reasons I dropped the EU when I did* - because the Jedi started to dominate the stories at about the same time that I started to wonder why, exactly, we were meant to see them as the heroes. And I still haven't really found an answer. I don't mind the Jedi being flawed, but the combination of both these kinds of horrible, institutional flaws, and the apparent obliviousness of the authors to just how nasty the Jedi were being portrayed, was enough to kill my enthusiasm in them.



* Well, that, and the unrelenting grimness of the New Jedi Order.

Comments

[sodzilla.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I think you're spot on with the obliviousness of the authors, including Lucas. The more I see of prequel-era Star Wars, the more I think they want to show how cool the Jedi are, but are hopelessly focused on the action-movie perception of what coolness is. It's easy to show off kick-ass combat moves, but it's hard to make "knowledge and defense" abilities* the focus of a story without having it bog down, and by and large the creators didn't seem to want to expend that effort.

As for the blaster-bolt-absorbing, though, there may be an excuse for the run-of-the-mill Jedi at least... for all we know it may be a very difficult technique, requiring a great deal of skill and/or Force power to use. Or it may only be effective against one attack at a time, hence making it near-useless when facing multiple opponents. If either of those conditions apply I'd see why it wouldn't be the first choice of defensive action for most Jedi.

*= except possibly for the Mind Trick. God, how I hate the Mind Trick.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Oh, sure, I can come up with explanations* too - the most obvious being "Vader's wearing heavy armour". :)

Still, I always thought it was a pretty cool demonstration of the power of a fully trained force-user; that they can just stand there when someone's shooting them and calmly invite them to join them at dinner - it seems a shame none of the Jedi ever do anything like that.


*If I remember correctly, "I, Jedi" offered the bizarre explanation that energy absorption was an inherently Dark side ability - an explanation that manages to be somehow worse than the hilarious explanation offered in "The Glove of Darth Vader" - namely, that Vader's right gauntlet is *invulnerable*... :)

[sodzilla.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, I have to agree on that last. Given that the Force is supposed to be "the energy field that binds all things together", I could sort of see energy NEGATION being dark because it goes against the nature of the Force or some such, but absorption or deflection should be a different matter.

Besides, the Jedi actually do similar stunts - or Yoda does, at least. Not sure if it's during his duel with Dooku or the one with Sidious, but I do know he absorbs Force lightning at one point.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

In a fit of masochism, I recently re-read the Jedi Academy trilogy and I, Jedi - I really need to write up a rant about them both; Jedi Academy for being so dull and pointless, and I, Jedi, for managing to somehow screw up mocking Jedi Academy... :)

[sunnyskywalker]

A very apt title.

I can see why the Jedi want to start with infants, I really can. The whole "give me the child until he's seven" thing. And it is probably nice for the kids to grow up feeling normal rather than having their peers call them freaks or something. It's just creepy that if someone happens to be born with this particular ability, it means cutting off all contact - no family, no possessions, no love, not a whole lot of choice in career, a strict Code... It hardly seems fair.

I'm also sure the parents consent, but I wonder about the circumstances. Shmi lets Anakin go because they're slaves on Tatooine and she wants a better life for him. Surely other parents have similar reasons? For instance, Palpatine's anti-alien policies probably didn't take root out of nowhere - there was probably a lot of latent prejudice he used. A lot of the non-human parents of Jedi children might have thought their children would have better lives as respected Jedi than as nobodies stuck in low-wage jobs. And for poor parents, the promise of free meals and clothes and education for their kids forever must have sounded great. Again, it's easy to see the benefits from this - but also the creepy side. Imperialist power (which the Republic was getting to be by that point) assimilating the talented members of the subject peoples into the ruling body and all that.

Also, the Jedi are known to mind-trick people even when there's no pressing reason (see: Obi-Wan in the Outlander), so why not when it's for the "greater good" - when trying to convince parents to give their children to the Jedi? Very Potterversian, but then Lucas and JKR both named characters Hermione and Padme/Padma, so it's possible they share brains. And in both 'verses, I like the magic-using people a lot better when they have to work with Muggles.

[sodzilla.livejournal.com]

...even though I seem to have taken up the role as the Jedi's advocate in these threads, I feel obliged to point out another scary side to the early start policy. Namely the fact that a lot of children "fail". I have no idea what the proportion is, and it's never stated in the movies so I'm not sure what you folks think of the canonicity, but in EU sources we're told that if nobody picks you as a Padawan by the time you're 13, you're not allowed to become a Jedi. Which means either you go into one of the support corps, or you're sent back to your family (who may or may not welcome you). Either way, it leaves those kids having to deal with rejection and near-absolute alienation at a much too early age.

It doesn't always seem to be the ones who're weak in the Force or who have poor character, either. At least unless you'd consider Obi-Wan one of those... he's supposed to have only just scraped in, by managing to impress Qui-Gon during his first mission with AgriCorps.

[sunnyskywalker]

Good point! Those kids get shuffled off again, possibly for something that's not their fault - and this time, they're old enough to remember it. And really, people change a lot after 13, so that hardly seems like a smart policy. Shouldn't they at least let the support-corps kids try again after a year or so if "character" was their problem?

I wonder about the numbers too. There are supposed to be 10,000 or so Jedi, right? But is this just the passable Jedi, or does it include the support corps? It would be interesting to know the proportions.

I've been thinking about picking up the MedStar duology for a while, because looking at Jedi healers rather than fighters sounds so refreshing. Have you read it, and is it worth reading?

[sodzilla.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking of picking it up myself, but haven't found it in my bookstore and haven't gotten around to ordering online... I keep hoping they'll get it in!

I think it should be worth reading though, because Barriss Offee is awesome.

As for Jedi numbers, I've always thought of that as being the "real" Jedi, knights and masters, though I suppose one could include padawans in training too... No idea if that's canon though.

One more thing re: early vs. late Jedi bloomers; does it strike anyone else as hypocritical that Yoda's such a stickler for the "little kids only" policy given that he was an adult when he became a Jedi?

[sunnyskywalker]

Did he really? That does sound hypocritical. Unless Yoda has a century-long brush with the dark side he's kept secret that he blames on starting late or something. Or maybe the Jedi Statistical Analysis team has reported that the Lost Twenty started later than the average Jedi, and they've concluded from this that starting late is to blame. (Which it might be, actually, if they remembered enough of their old lives to compare and found the Temple lacking somehow.)

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Personally, I always thought it was a mistake from a story point of view to have Force ability be innate - there's nothing in the original trilogy that says that; Luke and his family have an innate talent for using the force, but that's not the same thing as saying that unless you're born with force-sensitivity, you're never going to be able to use the force. Get rid of that idea, and the Jedi no longer have any reason to obsessively collect and hoard the few people with the ability to tap into the Force...

I'm wondering if parents were compensated for the loss of their children - or if the Republic or the Jedi kept tabs on the children that weren't taken in for training. It would seem a fairly reasonable precaution - but would just make the whole situation even creepier...

[(Anonymous)]

Karen Traviss comes from an angle that jars me a little too much, is a little too left-wing (and I consider myself pretty much to the left of things, myself). But what I like so much about her work is that it takes a hard, unflinching look at Jedi ethics. It doesn't, contrary to what most think, lionise the Mandalorians either - her matter-of-fact tone describing their ruthlessness has subtextual implications of sociopathy, to me - but the final conclusion her characters draw, that the only diff between the Sith and Jedi is that the Sith are honest about being dishonest, is right on the mark.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Have you been talking to fialleril? This sounds almost exactly like one of her posts... (this is not a bad thing, of course!)

I think they often went a little too far, and the Jedi end up being less 'in urgent need of reform' and more 'burn the whole rotten edifice to the ground and sow the earth with salt'

Agreed. This is one of my (many) pet peeves about the Prequels - apart from anything else, from a story perspective it lessens the impact of what Vader and Palpatine do to the Jedi. I mean, if it wasn't for the scene with the younglings, I doubt an audience who had only scene the prequels would really care about the destruction of the order.

And then you watch the OT, and see Luke so determined to resurrect the Jedi Order...

As for the EU in general - I deal with this by a general blanket refusal to acknowledge its existence. Makes life easier, and far less aggravating *g*

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is intentional - I stand by my interpretation that Anakin brought balance to the force by ensuring that Luke ended up the only Jedi or Sith standing; that someone fundamentally decent and not tied to the tradition or dogma of either side would end up being the person who would found the new order of the force.

And then you look back at the OT, and you see that virtually everything Obi-Wan and Yoda say is lies, and that their only interest is in using Luke as a weapon against their enemies; they're not willing to tell him the truth, and they're horrified at the idea that he might try *communicating* with Vader rather than just kill him, or that he'll help his friends rather than sacrifice them for a nebulous greater good...

But the whole thing is done in such a confused manner, and Lucas apparently still sees Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Jedi as - well, as the wise and good masters that the OT always implied they were, and I end up wondering how much of it is intentional, how much of it is bad writing, and how much of it is me reading too much into throw-away lines...

[lyore.livejournal.com]

My problem is I don't think that GL expected us to look back at the OT and see the lies and manipulation, so I'm just... I find it irritating, both from a story perspective (while I like the idea of Luke being freed from the constraints and the (philosophical) limitations of the old Jedi, I never expected to feel like it the Jedi had it coming!), and also from a technical storytelling perspective.

Basically - I wish the insight from watching the Prequels complemented the information and portrayals in the OT, instead of running roughshod all over it, and forcing such a radical review.

But then, I'm a bitter OT fan :P

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm pretty bitter myself. ;)

I agree, the technical storytelling elements are the most irritating parts of the PT - A PT that was clearly and cleanly intending to force a re-evaluation of the OT isn't something I'd want, but it would be better films than the ones we got, which still force a radical re-evaluation, but never make it clear how much of that is intentional, and how much of it is just part of the PT's tendancy to not think things through and wander off into irrelevancies...

I mean, granted, it *is* fun to examine and disect the movies, and work out what elements just don't work and which ones could be cut or subtly altered to improve the films... but, damnit, that's not what I want from Star Wars! I've got the Matrix sequels for that! ;)

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I've got the Matrix sequels for that!
Exactly!

[sunnyskywalker]

See, I would be totally down with OT Obi-Wan and Yoda as mostly good but just so broken by the PT events that they lie and manipulate Luke because they're so terrified of screwing up again. Tragic fallen semi-heroes and all that. And it's possible that's what GL intended, but I'm just not sure. But the way it turned out, I wonder if they just never got it at all. I don't know what kind of tweaking in the PT would fix that for me.

*also OT fan, and pretty much bitter at all series ever by now*

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I would be totally down with OT Obi-Wan and Yoda as mostly good but just so broken by the PT events that they lie and manipulate Luke because they're so terrified of screwing up again.

See, that's a brilliant interpretation of the characters! But like you, I just wish there was some indication of how we are 'meant' to piece together all these contradictory fragments...

Heh. Bitter OT fans Unite!

[sunnyskywalker]

I think there's even some canon support for it. Didn't Ben tell Luke in RotJ that he didn't want to lose him like he'd lost his father?

I just wish there was some indication of how we are 'meant' to piece together all these contradictory fragments...

Lucas wouldn't even have to spell it out, just connect a few of the elements better. The clone army, for instance - why doesn't Anakin or Obi-Wan ever have a line wondering if growing behavior-modified soldiers to order isn't just like having a slave army? And Obi-Wan or whoever could rebut with whatever argument - it's only minor tweaking to get them to the level of obedience that a good soldier (or Padawan) has already, or something. And then they'd move on, leaving the audience to contemplate that.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Lucas wouldn't even have to spell it out, just connect a few of the elements better.

Right. We don't need him to connect the dots for us - we just need the dots to be there!